AA’s Satanic Roots

Alastair Crowley chafed at the long and oppressive list of ‘Thou shalt nots’ in the bible, as well as the hypocrisy he saw in the church in which he followed his father who was a traveling preacher.  So he dreamed up a new religion whose only law was “Do what thou wilt.”  He named it Thelema and spent the rest of his life trying to justify it through a grand unified theory of science, magic, occult and drug use.  He founded two churches in which to practice this religion: OTO (Order of Oriental Templars) and  A∴A∴ (Argentium Astrum – Silver Star).  

The primary purpose of the religion was of course to convince women to sleep with him or engage in various depraved activities and to not complain about it afterwards.  Unfortunately he never achieved much success and died poor and alone, and highly reviled.  

Bill Wilson also dabbled in the occult (and séances and LSD), and although he didn’t know Crowley personally, he was familiar with his work, primarily through their mutual friend Aldous Huxley.  Wilson’s friend Dr Bob, co-founder of AA, was a member of a new charismatic organization called the Oxford Group, in which people found God and spiritual fulfillment by sharing their sins publicly and then making restitution and then recruiting new members.  The group was founded by Frank Buchman, who later became infamous as a Nazi sympathizer: “I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism.”  Buchman was also believed to have sexually exploited the young men in his groups.  Whether the Oxford Group can be described as “Christian” is open to debate, although AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) members insist it is, and therefore that AA is based on Christianity even if most Christian-specific language was later stripped out, and even if Buchman himself was not a respectable individual if not a total hypocrite.  After all, no one is perfect.





Wilson realized that Crowley’s dream of repealing the laws of sin was probably futile, despite (or because of) his own experience with the occult.  In a flash of genius, Bill W envisioned another option: sin could be committed freely and then paid for later by uniting excessive drinking with the Oxford Group ‘programme’.  In a frenzy of inspiration, he created the 12 Steps and the organization that practiced it: Alcoholics Anonymous.  He gave Thelema to the drinker of alcohol:

    • Thelema: Do what thou wilt is the whole of law
    • AA: The alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot (Big Book p. 62)

The alcoholic commits sins freely while under the influence of an irresistible craving for alcohol, and then makes amends for them by late-middle age.  The process of achieving ‘sobriety’ takes many years and is fraught with a cycle of bingeing and abstinence known as ‘relapsing’ during most of one’s adulthood.  The group held immediate appeal for many people for many reasons.  It was an acceptable form of occultism and satanism with an veneer of legitimacy, and its meetings were even welcome in Church basements.  The group quickly infiltrated the alcohol industry, medicine, and government to transform a pagan religion into a new disease which they called ‘alcoholism’.

Wilson spent the last 30 years of his life “13th Stepping” the newcomers, and though his behavior at meetings had to be monitored due to complaints, he certainly came closer than Crowley to fulfilling the dream.

Satan Gets Mainstreamed

Of course, most AA members deny that AA is satanic (although some do not).  Certainly, it is pagan in its requirement that the new member choose a Higher Power that can be anything, such as a coffee pot, or the group itself, as compared to the First Commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  The job of the HP is to remove the character defects like greed, jealousy and pride that create the resentments that power the cravings that lead to the drinking that ends in sin (or attempt thereof).  Some claim that AA is “spiritual not religious” because you can choose your own HP.  But that just makes it pagan.  One must believe in their chosen HP: “Faith has to work twenty-four hours a day in and through us or we perish.” (Big Book p. 16)  Some members claim that AA is Christian due to the recital of the “Lord’s Prayer” at the end of each meeting.  However, I have been to hundreds of meetings and never once heard a Christian prayer.  Of course, one can choose Jesus Christ as their Higher Power.  But that is extremely rare,  even if most member say, “I’m not Christian but most members in my group are.”  The claim of Christianity is typically used by younger members as an avoidance strategy: “I wanted to stop drinking, but AA felt too Christian and moralistic.  It triggered the same feelings that drove me to drink in the first place!”  And then they’ll go out for a few drinks.

Most members willing to name the god of their understanding choose various Eastern religions and philosophies that purport to eliminate earthly cravings.  Buddhism and Taoism are popular, along with various deities of Greek and Nordic mythology.  Of all the research on alcoholism, none indicates what percent of members have chosen Satan himself as their HP, although many members are quick to assert that such a choice is perfectly fine as long as it helps you stop drinking.  However, the claim that AA is evil because it’s satanic is met with a furious spewage of insults and abuse characterized by atrocious spelling and grammar as demonstrated in the comments below.

Of course, our country is founded on Freedom of Religion, and people are free to believe whatever they want.  Thank God!  The purpose of this article is not to claim that one religion is superior to another, even if many of the comments here blame Christianity for various atrocities and genocide, not to mention drinking itself.  The purpose here is simply to show that alcoholism is a religion with Satanic roots, and its church is AA.

In this way, AA transformed the religion of ‘drink, sin, amend’ into a disease called ‘alcoholism’.  Of course, compulsive and excessive drinking and drug use existed before AA, and the cause of this behavior was often mysterious to the casual observer, especially since the drinker would not openly admit the real reason, even if they didn’t claim not to have one.  AA gave credence to the Craving Lie:

I wanted to stop drinking but couldn’t no matter how hard I tried.

This is the cult’s central teaching.  They claim their substance abuse was a battle against their own willpower, neglecting to mention the mischief while drunk (often with the claim of ‘blackout’).  The same lie is used by drug addicts to justify an endless parade of reprehensible behavior under cover of a ‘disease’.  In reality, the drug use is only to provide cover for the sin and mischief, and the user can stop any time (withdrawal from all substances, under medical supervision, is universally reported as ‘comfortable’).  They drink because they want to, even though they claim otherwise.  When a AA member says they ‘get it’, this means not that they have been cured of alcoholism (they are likely to relapse many times), but that they learned how to explain away their sins by calling it a ‘disease’.  Often this is followed by the claim: “AA worked for me and it’s the only thing that ever worked.  I was going to die before I discovered AA.”  Anyone who says this simple but powerful lie likely has a few sponsees who they’ve inducted into the religion, and more than a few stories of sponsee abuse and exploitation, like their hero Bill Wilson.  And we are relieved that at least there is a treatment for such unfortunates, having fallen for the Craving Lie ourselves: Why does it matter if AA is religious, as long as it helps them stop drinking?

Step One: “We admitted we were powerless to alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.”  Alcohol is simply a god/demon idolized by the alcoholic during their drinking career.  The 12 Step program essentially is a process of exorcism: replacing one god/demon for another less destructive.  Despite the craving lie, most alcoholics claim they didn’t realize how destructive their drinking was, or that their lives had gotten ‘out of control’.  Thus it was not so much a matter of willpower as of realization and honesty, as most members are quick to admit.  Cravings are rarely mentioned at AA meetings.  Go to your local meeting and see for yourself!

Addiction Fiction

Each AA member has his own pet theory of the neurological basis of addiction, generally positing a rube-goldberg contraption consisting of: dopamine, seratonin, mesolimbic neocortex, amygdala, and ‘hypocampus’.  They claim that drug use ‘rewires neural pathways’ to mess up the ‘reward center’ in the brain, which they back up with various Wikipedia articles whose footnotes reference each other, and anyone who challenges this ‘proven scientific fact’ is displaying ‘ignorance’.  Government researchers produce completely bogus fiction about addiction which they pass off as ‘science’; the rehab industry promotes sham ‘evidence based’ treatments; and public policy experts repeat the same old canards about ‘the unimaginable suffering of the addict and their loved ones’ while complaining that the lack of good science about addiction justifies maintenance of the status quo: addiction is a disease not a crime although we should continue to punish people for drug use and refer people who got in trouble while drinking/drugging to AA because it’s free and the only treatment available in most places anyway.  And they refuse even to consider the possibility that treatment actually creates addicts.

AA propaganda is continually imposed on us from Hollywood as well.  For example, in a recent episode of the sci-fi series Extant, grandfather Quinn ‘relapses’ with a shot of whiskey and then immediately makes a double-or-nothing bet on the bar game skills of his robot grandson.  Of course, the wager didn’t turn out well.  If he had taken a moment to ask his HP to remove his ‘greed’, he might have been able to resist the unbearable craving to drink, and walked out while he was ahead.  Portrayals like this inextricably connect drinking with sin, while deferring the penalty.

But the simple and obvious truth is that we are sinners who enjoy sinning, and the religion of alcoholism can provide a convenient cover for those so inclined.  As long as you are willing to tell the Craving Lie and make amends at some future date (typically 40’s / 50’s).

Unfortunately the same principles are used as brainwashing techniques against vulnerable newcomers, often sent by the courts or in search of companionship, who must first confess powerlessness to alcohol (i.e. admit they have a deadly disease) and then to cure it, must confess their sins and insecurities with “rigorous honesty”.  The newcomer is instructed not to date in the first year and is subjected to sexual and financial exploitation.  The lucky ones will eventually escape the group with unexplained bitterness and paranoia.  The less fortunate will be among the thousands each year who succumb to their learned powerlessness in a time of crisis, and thereby contribute to the statistic that testifies to the deadly power of the satanic religion that is considered by most to be a medical disease despite its striking resemblance to old-fashioned demon possession.

Darren Aronofsky: Satan’s Propagandist

As a child, Darren Aronofsky was deeply troubled by the story of Noah, in which God destroyed the wicked in a great flood.  What if God considered him to be among the wicked?  Would he be destroyed too?  He addresses his lifelong despair in his movie Noah (2014), a parody of the bible story.  In Aronofsky’s version, God destroys the world as punishment for man destroying the world.  Noah, who is described as ‘righteous’ in the bible, is represented as angry and capricious in the movie: he chastises his son for plucking a flower then kills a man for killing an animal for meat and calls it ‘justice’.  In the bible story he is instructed directly by God to build an ark.  In the movie, he has vague dreams and frightening visions and questions God’s purpose for him, visiting his grandfather Methusaleh played by Anthony Hopkins who suggests that he should surmise God’s will ‘as best you can understand it’.  He later threatens to kill his grandchildren because he incorrectly infers that God’s will for him is to ensure the extinction of mankind after the flood. The message of the movie is that it’s not safe to trust your will to God. (Even though the Christian God expects you to use your own willpower — only in AA must you entrust it to a higher power.  But if you find yourself at AA, evidently God is not a safe bet – perhaps that was Grampa Quinn’s mistake.)

It never occurred to the young Darren that he simply didn’t have to be wicked.  Though it didn’t help that he was no doubt troubled by Adam and Eve’s expulsion from the Garden of Eden for the innocent sin of eating the forbidden fruit.  After all, God created them with strong desire.  What right had he to punish them for experiencing it, especially as it was manipulated by Satan, another of God’s creations?  He should have created a will that could overcome temptation.  But as a result of this ‘design flaw’, man was punished: expelled from paradise and condemned to a lifetime of work and suffering.  Aronofsky explores the injustice of this ‘mistake’ in his movie Requiem for a Dream (2000), which contains the iconic scene in which a drug addict tearfully unplugs the TV while his mother is watching it, for the purpose of selling it for drugs, apologizing for his behavior and his unbearable cravings but unable to resist.  His will is useless against his desires, just like with Adam and Eve.  This scene, which was completely absurd before it was created, and never actually happened ever in the history of drug abuse, is now acted out on a daily basis by drug users around the world, to the astonishment of their parents who insist that if it’s not real addiction then their child deserves an Oscar for their performance.  (Of course, every parent thinks their child is very talented, especially if they have no TV with which to view the competition.)

Aronofsky seems to follow a Gnostic philosophy, in which God is actually an evil demiurge (aka “The Creator”) who created the material world, which is evil and painful and full of temptations and restrictions and rules and punishments.  And then there is a higher god of the universe, whose only law is “Do what thou wilt,” sometimes represented by Satan for that reason.  Perhaps his movies are an offering to that higher god, in the hopes of being rescued from his brutal subsistence of dating models and toiling on movie sets in exotic locales.

Indulging in sin consciously or otherwise is one thing.  But convincing others to indulge in it too?  Or to teach sin isn’t sin?  That’s just evil.  Though I try not to worry too much about man’s wickedness, even if I haven’t seen any rainbows lately.  Unless you count the movie’s circular rainbows.  But for some reason they provide little consolation.

Nevertheless I enjoyed the movie.

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571 thoughts on “AA’s Satanic Roots”

  1. LOL



    There is nothing offensive about this blog at all. I found it quite amusing. Although I do believe that you’re uncertain of what a pagan really is, someone who worships several deities. I think the word you’re looking for is heretic. I myself was a minor follower of Aleistair Crowley and hedonism, even in my sobriety. But I found it much more beneficial to focus on the unified consciousness theory as opposed to one specified religion. Leaves room to be more loving and caring and open-minded towards others. Plus, the whole hedonistic lifestyle is selfish and a bunch of bullshit.

    Aside from all of that, putting your “religious convictions” aside, and trying to play God in telling people that they’re going to hell (people really don’t like that, by the way), there’s this FANTASTIC medication for bipolar called Depakote. You may also want to try Latuda. Maybe throw in an anti-psychotic or two. You seem a little too paranoid to be playing on the internet.

    And regardless of the origins of alcoholics anonymous, the spiritual program behind it (which has actually been around before Crowley, for hundreds of years ;)) has managed to keep TONS of people sober and happy. So… who cares?

    1. Great post Tori but you are posting to someone who does not believe, in the face of all of the research done over countless decades on the subject, in anything like addiction. Don’t get them started in bipolar because they will deny that as well.

    2. Thanks for enjoying the blog and for the lesson on theology. Followers of Crowley are always the experts on all things, I’ve noticed. And thanks for the meds recommendation. Of course, if anyone challenges sacred cult doctrine they must be crazy. Ironic, coming from a person who thinks that praying to a doorknob to relieve your vanity and jealousy is ‘sane’. Thanks for demonstrating to the newcomers the kind of tactics they will be subjected to if if they dare question the Fellowship’s wisdom. It’s helpful for them to see your vile bullying in action. Funny no matter how many times I explain it you guys keep doing it. The stupidity of satanists-in-denial is baffling.

      1. And I have noticed that fundamental christians think they know everything as well. If you are challenging AA doctrine that is one thing but to blatantly lie about something you have zero understanding of is out right wrong. It is libel plain and simple. But go ahead and keep spreading your lies and causing more harm.

      2. Thanks for the ‘fact’ that a pagan is “someone who worships several deities”. It doesn’t matter whether it’s true, only if you can say it confidently enough that a newcomer won’t question it. Also, thanks for demonstrating to the newcomer that expressing their opinion is ‘libel’ even if you are unable to point out a single thing wrong with it.

  2. Well Michael and addictionmyth have all the answers folks. Remember if you are not Christian you are satanic. In other words if you are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or any other non-Christian religion you are satanic. Because without Jesus you are satanic. Good luck folks you are going to burn in the fiery depths of hell for even daring to have an alternate view than the arm chair prophets on this blog. By the way Mike and addictionmyth, which arm of Christianity do you follow? Do you follow the original faith, ie catholic or do you follow one of the many heretic faiths that sprung up after Martin Luther started a religious revolution?

    1. “Thank the divine that AA saved me from myself.” Obviously you worship Satan. That’s fine, welcome to America where you can believe whatever you want. My only point is that AA is blatantly religious/pagan/satanic. And if that ‘saved’ you from your disease, then guess what, your ‘disease’ is also a religious belief: idolatry of drugs and alcohol in youth followed by being ‘saved’ in late-middle age by choosing a god/demon. Again, that’s fine. But that doesn’t make your history of drug/alcohol abuse a medical disease. I think it’s great for people to see that the most tenacious AA defenders are so quick to engage in religious arguments. They will be much less likely to recommend it to their friends and family, and much less likely to believe that people like you have a real medical disease or won’t try to brainwash and bully the newcomer into suicide. (Your only ‘evidence’ that addiction is a disease is “everyone knows” and “google it”.)

      1. “Thank the divine that AA saved me from myself.” Obviously you worship Satan. ”

        You have no idea who or what I worship. You don’t know me. How often have you heard satan revered as the Divine?

        “My only point is that AA is blatantly religious/pagan/satanic. ”

        Which means that you still have no idea what you are talking about.

        “And if that ‘saved’ you from your disease, then guess what, your ‘disease’ is also a religious belief: idolatry of drugs and alcohol in youth followed by being ‘saved’ in late-middle age by choosing a god/demon.”

        I don’t idolize drugs and alcohol. I abhore alcohol and drugs because of the destruction they cause which you deny left and right regardless of the piles of evidence that shows that they do.

        ” I think it’s great for people to see that the most tenacious AA defenders are so quick to engage in religious arguments.”

        The only religious argument we are engaging in here is defending our fellowship from people like you, people who slander and lie about things that they have no clue about. People who refuse left and right to do meaningful research on the topic. People who, like you and others on this dumb blog, are willfully ignorant of the truth.

        They will be much less likely to recommend it to their friends and family, and much less likely to believe that people like you have a real medical disease or won’t try to brainwash and bully the newcomer into suicide. (Your only ‘evidence’ that addiction is a disease is “everyone knows” and “google it”.)

        There has been no one in the rooms of AA that have bullied anyone into suicide. You are making this stuff up as you go. As far as evidence I have posted numerous sites that you could go to but because of your lack of intelligence or inability to navigate the internet or more likely because of willful ignorance you choose not to. You choose instead to commit libel. Just because you state a lie more than once does not make it true. Go do the research. I have. The APA, SAMSHA and many other reputable organizations have oodles of research to prove what I have been posting. All you have is bullshit lies. And as far as brainwashing people you seem to be doing a fair amount of that yourself.

  3. Michael, Michael, Michael…I am not a bible thumper or an arm chair prophet but I am sure that somewhere in that musty old tome of yours it says to “judge not lest ye be judged yourself.” Therefore if you truly believe what the bible tells you perhaps you better stop judging others.

    1. And the only thing that you’ve shown is that AA is blatantly religious and “we must have faith 24 hours a day or we perish”. Which is exactly my point, so thank you.

      1. I am not quite sure where you came up with that. Probably the same place you come up with your so called “facts” the netherworld. Nice try though…NOT

      2. AA is blatantly religious.

        And the religion is satan pushing “god as we understand him” in other words follow satan.

        Because without Jesus, your following satan.

  4. Although I don’t agree with everything in this post.

    Anybody who is Christian, who has even a little bit of God’s word taught to him by The Holy Spirit, has to think that AA is a satanic cult, and that satan himself keeps people sober. Why would satan do that? Well if you stay sober by demonic power, and think you don’t need Jesus, that satan has won.

    “I am the way the truth and the life, NOBODY comes to the father but through me”

    So all you people claiming God without Jesus, actually harness satanic power.

    A.A. Is truly a satanic cult. Most religions are “Bible/Christian” based. It’s how satan deceives, getting people to think AA is “Biblical,” therefore is devinely inspired. I spent 9 months in the rooms of AA using Jesus as my higher power. I was a believer, but not born again. When I became born again the Holy Spirit convicted me of the cult I was in and have me real power to be sober and live successfully. AA’ers need constant meetings and big book readings and sponsor talks cause the fake demonic power isn’t permanent like the One True God’s.

    If you are a Christian, a real Christian, you have no business in an AA meeting.

    Read Ezekial chapter 8. And see what God thinks of people going to AA meetings in his own house, each with there own “idol”

      1. Don’t you just love all of the arm chair prophets running around? I love how they think that their way is the only way and that all other ways are doomed to a hell that may or may not exist. As an alcoholic I have been to hell and it sucked. Thank the divine that AA saved me from myself. Also addictionmyth I am still waiting for anything that may resemble facts from you.

    1. A small gentle comment. As a member of AA for many, many years, and a born again Christian. A few more gentle words: compassion, love, nonjudgemental, tollerance and acceptance. AAs biggest, aminity. When we look for yruth and God, we will find it. AA gives guidelines, (steps) that help us. I have seen evil. You cannot hide from it. But, in over twenty years I I have seen miracles and people’s lives changed. It is not for us to judge where and when Gods people should or should not be. If it works stay. If it doesn’t leave. Supporting decisions of others is love, even if we don’t agree. If you can’t show Gods true love for all humanity and their faults, then I guess we should only be surrounded by Christians. I cannot look forward unless I look back.

      1. Wait a minute, it’s not for us to judge where and when God’s people should be?

        So I should sit back and be ok with you proclaiming Jesus, and a society that teaches, “you don’t need Jesus, just a god you decide to believe in.”

        That’s not satan controlling your thinking?

        “If it works stay, if it doesn’t leave”

        So since your a born again Christian, you believe Jesus is the ONLY way to God. However, your ok with people having alternative gods? In other

        “as long as it works and you stay sober, I don’t care that your going to hell.”

        I show God’s true love by testifying to the truth, and hopefully people will not fall into your false doctrine that it’s ok to choose any higher power you like.

        “Supporting decisions of other is love, even when we don’t agree”

        So you support people believing in false gods?

        Are you sure you’ve been born again, or do you think you’ve been born again?
        Read John chapter 3 thoroughly over and over again.

        And there are numerous Bible verses stating to only associate with Christians. Now obviously you have to deal with non believers every day, but no you should not be heavily involved with a non believer.

      2. As I’ve said before, AA is great for the middle age drunk who is ready to stop wasting money on booze. But young people typically have more interest in fun and sex than ‘finding god’ and ‘peace and serenity’. For them it’s best to stay away from your wacko cult, which only teaches that their non-belief will surely kill them. (“We must have faith 24 hours a day or we perish.”) To me that sounds more like Islamist theology than Christian.

      3. I will tell you, if what I have read here on this blog is indicative of Christians then I would rather surround myself with anyone other than Christians.

    2. Michael, Michael, Michael…I am not a bible thumper or an arm chair prophet but I am sure that somewhere in that musty old tome of yours it says to “judge not lest ye be judged yourself.” Therefore if you truly believe what the bible tells you perhaps you better stop judging others.

    3. You are reading my message, but not listening. Where are Gods people needed most. A spiritual debate will not happen with me. My relationship with Jesus is personal. Maybe instead of attackimg each other, we should try to understand each other. You missed the whole meaning. I am trying to help, not accuse. As in recovery and spirit there should be UNCONDITIONAL love. To understand is love. To attack each other isn’t. Words hurt

      1. There’s no debate here, just the revealing of truth, satan has done such a good job of masking himself in the rooms of AA.

        Secondly I’m not judging, but stating the fact that participating in AA is false doctrine, it’s false prophesy. And no man who is Christian she participate.

        Imagine Jesus walking into an AA room, and you telling him,
        “Oh hey Jesus, yeah uhh you can come in but were telling people they can choose that cherry tree out front instead of you as there God, is that cool? K thanks”

        You think that would fly with the savior?

        But I’m judging right?

      2. Even addiction myth is saying it more Islam than Christian, and Islam is satanic. WAKE UP

  5. Would the author please name one religious denomination which classifies AA as a “cult”?

    This article is so poorly researched and written it is pretty sad.

    Is the author aware that prior to publication, copies of the AA book were sent to virtually all Religions; Christian, Jewish, Buddhist etc, and then within the Religious Denominations; Baptist, Protestant, Catholic, etc…..

    Every last practicing Religious Body the text was sent to gave the book a ringing endorsement. The Catholic Church while suggesting some changes, suggestions which AA declined to accept, even supported & continues to support the fellowship and it’s book despite small differences.

    Near the beginning of this grossly inaccurate persuasive opinion blog; the author implies personal understansing of the 1st commandment and implies AA as a whole directly violates it.

    If there were to be the tiniest bit of truth to that statement, doesn’t the author believe that some institutions of religion would have openly declined to accept AA and voiced their reasoning?

    I guess your simply a “cult” or “satanic” if you don’t believe as the author believes. To the poor soul who wrote this dribble, God is to big to fit inside my head, and I believe God is to big to fit inside your head. If my understanding or concept of God differs from you, that in no way means either of us is breaking a commandment.

      1. I’m just trying to figure out how you classify it as pagan and satanic?

        I mean if there were like a .000000001% chance anything you wrote trying to link it to Satanism or Paganism were correct, I’m pretty sure there would be at least one religious institution backing your theory.

      2. Isn’t it just allot more likely that some girl you may have liked realized that you were the kind of person who would

        A. Make up a bullshit website
        B. Post bullshit
        C. Do it all anonymously
        D. Have no links to credible websites or peers

        Rather than accept you are a complete piece of shit who has nothing worthwhile to offer another human being you blame AA. I’m willing to bet you probably got dumped by some girl in AA who would rather lick old man balls then be with you.

        Your probably sad enough to believe it is all one big cult to brainwash girls into licking old man balls.

        The fact that your a complete piece of shit with nothing credible on your website would just be too fucking obvious.

    1. Poorly researched would be an upgrade for this blog. The FACT is that absolutely no research has been done on this blog. The only thing you get is opinion that gets regurgitated by sheeple.

      1. Yeah. …

        He could at least modernize his crap a little.

        I’d be much more entertained with a presidential conspiracy behind the cult & satanist crap.

        Maybe modernize this retarded rhetoric with some Kenyan witch doctor angle.

  6. Very amusing if it weren’t so sad.
    A disease has symptoms, recurs (chronic – relapse potential) and is ultimately fatal if not arrested (treated) CDC.
    Alcoholism/addiction fits these criteria.

  7. I have been an AA member since 2012 I have tried allot of different religions that were God based and not one of them helped in many religions around religions around the world people pray for repentance of go into confession or even get rebuked from their church for their sins in the bible it even says that we are imperfect and we are bound to sin so the fact that you are trying to say that AA is an excuse for “us” to sin and blame it on drink or drugs shows not only your ignorance to the situation but also your arrogance as well. AA isn’t about only going to meetings it’s about so many other aspects of this program if you knew anything about the fellowship of AA you would know this but by your article it’s apparent that you haven’t a slightest clue about the program which is actually quite humorous so I can’t be angry at you for your ignorance. Because after all ignorance is bliss.

    And P.S. I’m twenty two years old I haven’t relapsed and I’ve done most of my amends in my first year of sobriety (so that blows your theory of amends being done by age 40 or 50) also my boyfriend is in the program as well and he and his family are devote Christians

    1. Recovery (n. fem) – Cosign my car loan or I’ll drink and get drunk and have sex with a creep I met at a meeting (who says he’s ‘Christian’) and have a baby and you’ll have to raise it while I’m out partying.

    2. Very well said, I am not in AA but my husband is and I am a supporter and this is the only thing that saved our marriage and I am a christian, and how many AA meetings are held in a church?

      1. Ezekial chapter 8 will show you about how God feels about AA meetings in his house.

        The church has turned it back on God, just like the Bible prophesied about in the last days, and holding AA meetings in the house of God is one example.

  8. This article is sad! I am an AA member since 2002. AA has its issues but the alternative for me was death I will take my chances with AA. Jesus is my higher power and we are now wrapping up a meeting with the lords prayer. I believe the man upstairs helped this program get started. Like any human creation we can find a way to screw up Gods direction but it does not take away from the 1000000s of lives this program has saved. Good luck with your slander. God is God and he works in wounderus ways. Who are you to say this is not part of Gods plan.

  9. I have been a sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous for 16 years this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! Whatever blows your dress up I guess…. Hope life is all you want it to be
    Sounds like there is a gaping hole somewhere eeeek

  10. Hi my name is Cheryl I am a recovery alcoholic of 21 years. 6 years I lost my son due to alcoholism. 1 year before his passing he poured gasoline on himself and set himself on fire. He was only 23 AA and my sobriety gave me strength to live and not drink! I am writing an autobiography that all of you need to read! The story will teach you tonot judge, acceptance and love each other. I am sad this person is angry with AA. However his intentions of anger should be learned from us , not resentment. Pray and love him, watch what you will receive in return!

    1. Hi Cheryl. Thank you for your message. I’m very sorry to hear about the cult abuse that you and your son experienced at the hands of AA. Your son’s pain is heart breaking, as is your pride in your ability not to drink through it. Yes, 12 Step tactics are very similar to ISIS. I hope you find peace.

      1. I am not quite sure where you get abuse from AA from Cheryl’s story but it is a far stretch to be sure. It would have been much more appropriate for you to extend your condolences for her loss than to give her a backhanded one by adding insult to her injury. You are very perverse.

      2. You are insane! What happened to the ladies son is sad. No doubt. But aa had nothing to do with it. You completely missed what she is saying. Aa is a cult of people trying to better there lives. I am in. Anything you read or see can be twisted. Aa is simple don’t drink help others and believe you are. It God!

  11. Yes addictionmyth my sponsees are alive. In fact they all live to this day. What’s your point? You have none therefore you use rhetoric, albeit badly, to try and prove something. What would be delightful coming from you would be actual facts but I don’t see that you have the ability to do that.

    1. Thank you Gavin. In the midst of evil Gods love and plans will be revealed. I am incapable to direct any anger nor resentment towards anyone. I am inspired, free, with true love and forgiveness. Despite controverial issues at hand. Learn to love each other.

      1. Yes it would be nice if everyone were as inspired and free from resentment and anger. Alas that is not to be. All we can do is work on it one day at a time. Have a blessed weekend.

  12. Addictionmyth I am not an older or middle aged man who is simply tired of the bar scene. I just turned 26 about 2 weeks ago. Here is yet another example of you spouting off dumb shit as if it were fact with no evidence to back you up. even though I am only 26 I probably have more life experience, friends, skill sets, people who love me, and general world knowledge than you.

    If aa is so bad how come when someone asked ghandi what he thought America’s greatest contribution to the world is; without hesitation he answered alcoholics anonymus? Answer that genius

      1. How come whenever I rebut things you say with indisputable facts you stop arguing them or don’t say something back as if it were never said in the first place? You’re bad at this game

      2. OK then I’m not much interested in his opinion.

        I’m sorry you say those nasty things. I’m sure you don’t really mean them. I want you to know that forgiveness is available to everyone. No amends required. 🙂

      3. I really do mean the ‘mean’ things I said. I don’t want or need forgiveness from you. I’m right in the eyes of my Lord and he’s forgiven me for the wrongs I have done as I have repented. Making amends isn’t about getting forgiveness from the other person it’s about taking responsibility for my wrong doing in a situation where someone else was wronged. You don’t always get forgiveness from making an amends and that doesn’t matter because forgiveness isn’t the point. And now back to my original point. I pray you get hit by a bus

    1. Hi my name is Cheryl I am a recovery alcoholic of 21 years. 6 years I lost my son due to alcoholism. 1 year before his passing he poured gasoline on himself and set himself on fire. He was only 23 AA and my sobriety gave me strength to live and not drink! I am writing an autobiography that all of you need to read! The story will teach you tonot judge, acceptance and love each other. I am sad this person is angry with AA. However his intentions of anger should be learned from us , not resentment. Pray and love him, watch what you will receive in return!

      1. I understand how my comment was perceived. It was not intended as such. “Evil” being the opposite of “good”. It is not good to hurt each other with words. The controversial debates will never end. My intentions, however briefly stayed, were to show an example that the program of AA, does indeed work. All I was trying to accomplish was to brighten someone’s day. I am truly sorry it hurt your feelings. It is necessary to give back everything that AA has given to me to help me remain sober. Love you Trish

  13. Meetings are not sparse addictionmyth. I was just very bored last night and it seems I am bored again. I thought about sharing this with some of my friends who also do not worship satan see this disease for what it is and then spending time laughing at you but thought against it in case your idiocracy reaches just one of them.

    Gavin thanks for your input. I love aa. I used to think it was a cult but got so beaten and willing that I decided if it was so be it give me the Kool aid. After saying that and doing what was suggested (not forced addiction myth) I found out its not a cult and there is no Kool aid. There is coffee though

    And with what you said about opinions, he is entitled to his. it’s one of the things I love about America. And with that I’m entitled to tell him he’s an idiot and that I hope some event causes a drastic change of personality on you addictionmyth. Preferably a painful experience but that’s just my opinion.

    1. Meetings are not sparse addictionmyth. I was just very bored last night and it seems I am bored again. I thought about sharing this with some of my friends who also do not worship satan see this disease for what it is and then spending time laughing at you but thought against it in case your idiocracy reaches just one of them.

      Gavin thanks for your input. I love aa. I used to think it was a cult but got so beaten and willing that I decided if it was so be it give me the Kool aid. After saying that and doing what was suggested (not forced addiction myth) I found out its not a cult and there is no Kool aid. There is coffee though

      And with what you said about opinions, he is entitled to his. it’s one of the things I love about America. And with that I’m entitled to tell him he’s an idiot and that I hope some event causes a drastic change of personality on you addictionmyth. Preferably a painful experience but that’s just my opinion.

      All that being said thanks for giving me something to laugh at and to fill my boredom while I wait for something better to do

      1. AA is great for middle age men like you who are tired of the bar scene. Much more fun to brainwash newcomers sent by the courts into your insane dogma. You don’t have to drink, you don’t have to waste money on booze, and you don’t have to wake up with a hangover. Just abuse and exploit vulnerable people and then make them admit they are ‘powerless’ to their ‘cravings’ and then wait for them to die. And then say, “Some people are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.” You are truly despicable. And if you don’t believe then just post your drunkalog and see for yourself.

        AA is great for late/middle age guys. Otherwise, best to stay away.

      2. John you are very welcome. I too love the program and I will always defend it to my dying breath. We need to combat ignorant and narcissistic people like addictionmyth wherever they are. If we don’t they will continue to allow addicts to die.

  14. Do you think I watch people die from their addictions for the fun of it? I treat people with best practices accepted by the APA and even using those best practices accepted by the APA people die from their addictions because they tend to listen to nonsense such as you spout. People who believe that they can safely jam a needle into their arms because you say it is ok to do so are dying left and right and you have the gall to call me out for being a killer? When you write crap that tells people that there is no such thing as addiction and that those who have repeatedly shown the inability to stop on their own don’t need to stop? You have some big brass balls don’t you?

    1. Yes I think you do it for the fun of it. I think you also enjoy ISIS execution videos. And if APA recommends your ‘best practices’, then they’re going down too.

      People die from their addictions because they listened to people like you. I have saved many lives by inoculating people against your brainwashing. Which is of course why you’re so angry. Because you won’t have the satisfaction of watching them die.

      Yes you are a killer. YES YOU ARE A KILLER.

      1. Wow!!! I just don’t know what to say. You really have it bad don’t you? I am a killer….Dammit I just didn’t know. Then by your very “logic” you are a mass murderer by being a Christian. I mean you know the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, the extermination of 6 million Jews during WWII and pretty much every other war in human history can be traced to religion and most of those deaths were by Christians. Yes, even Hitler. So I guess if we use your line of thinking then you my dear are a mass murderer of 100s of millions.

      2. I pray that you receive a spiritual awakening of the sudden shocking variety that brings about an instantaneous revelation and personality change so that you no longer want to spout out this nonsense that may hurt people in the future. God probably won’t agree with this part of my prayer but I hope the medium that sends you into the afformentioned awakening is some kind of you getting hit with a bus incident.

  15. “You are killing people with your insane dogma. I am saving lives. When they read this they will know not to listen to your stream of lies and insults designed to brainwash them into ‘powerlessness’ to their ‘cravings’ and then you watch them die. You are truly despicable. I am putting an end to your reign of terror. You people are worse than ISIS. You walk around with pious sanctimony and then you abuse, exploit and bully vulnerable people into suicide. By the millions. If you don’t believe it then just post your drunkalog and see for yourself! Put up or shut up!”

    HAHAHHAHA!!!! ISIS? Really? My story has nothing to do with it. My story is mine. No one ever brain washed me and I don’t brainwash anyone else. We offer a way to HELP people stop being slaves to their addictions. Unlike you. You offer slander and libel. I have put up. I posted at least one maybe two or three sites for you to do your research. Which you refuse time and time again. It is unknowledgeable people such as yourself that are brainwashing people. Reign of terror? Please. Drama queen much?

  16. “Everything you said is wrong or an outright lie. Don’t believe it? Just post your drunkalog and see for yourself. Here, let me get you started: “Hi my name is John an I’m an alcoholic. The program taught me to be honest for the first time in my life. In fact, I am now honest about most things….”

    Actually since you are so willfully ignorant and lazy that you refuse to look up actual facts, your statement to John above is nothing but slander. Do the research. It is there for the whole world to see and John was doing nothing but pointing that truth out. To say post your drunkalog is inane and best and disregarding of facts at the most. So do yourself and others a favor and actually do research not just post your diatribe that is ill thought out and incorrect. The problem with fundamentalists like your self is that you think you know everything even in the face of actual research. You are more than likely one of the whack jobs who think the earth is only 6000 years old even though scientific evidence proves otherwise.

    1. As always you have no idea what you’re talking about and are capable only of spouting Big Book dogma. Nothing that guy said was true, nor did he include any supporting evidence for his lies. Everything I say is true and I have lots of evidence to support every bit of it. If you disagree then post your evidence not your ignorance.

      1. Really? Everything you say is true even though the evidence is there to the contrary? Dogma? Do you read the bible, go to church and listen to the preacher’s sermon? Do you actually live the tenets of your faith? How about baring false witness? That is one you apparently have no problem with since you bare false witness every time you post on here. I have given you a couple of sites to research and yet you still refuse to do so. Is it because you are afraid that your so called “truth” will be shaken?

      2. And by the way I know a thing or twelve about addiction. I work in the field and I have done plenty of research over the decade that I have been doing so. I am also a recovering alcoholic of 26 years and I have seen the worst of the worse come to recovery and get “it.” I have also seen them die because of people like you spreading lies to them telling them that addiction is not real. If you want to do addicts a favor shut this site down before you kill more people. It is incorrect and out right lies such as you spread that kill people not AA or other 12 step programs. It is people who tuck their heads in the sand and deny the existence of a problem that perpetuate that problem. People such as your self. Stop it before you hurt more people with your drivel.

      3. You are killing people with your insane dogma. I am saving lives. When they read this they will know not to listen to your stream of lies and insults designed to brainwash them into ‘powerlessness’ to their ‘cravings’ and then you watch them die. You are truly despicable. I am putting an end to your reign of terror. You people are worse than ISIS. You walk around with pious sanctimony and then you abuse, exploit and bully vulnerable people into suicide. By the millions. If you don’t believe it then just post your drunkalog and see for yourself! Put up or shut up!

  17. This is one of the most bull shit things I have ever read. I am in aa and am a newcomer. No one has asked me to worship satan. No one has tried to financially or sexually exploit me. And my higher power is Jesus Christ, The Holy Father and the Holy Spirit. On that note I have only met one person who ever worshipped anything close to satan and he no longer does as a result of this simple program. Some people do not have a name for their higher power but Christ only had one commandment. “Do unto others…” or in so many words do the next right thing. Which is the ultimate message this program teaches. I don’t know what meetings you are going to but they can’t all be great so maybe the one you went to was just fucked up and you chose the one asshole who proves your point to base the entire program off of. Blog writer who’s name isn’t important enough to remember. You are a fucking idiot.

    1. Congratulations on finding the program of AA my friend. I hope to meet you sometime on your road to happy destiny. I too am a member and have been sober through the program for 26 years. I have never been exploited either nor do I worship satan. With that said you have to understand that people have opionions, some are based on truth, some like addictionmyth and her/his girlfriend Trish have opinions that are thoughtless, incorrect and willfully ignorant of fact. You know what they say about opinions don’t you? Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. The more those of us who are walking in the right (yourself and myself) continue to post on here to combat such inane nonsense the better. However I feel that it is imperative that we post in a thoughtful and positive manner otherwise we give these cretins ammunition against us and the program that has saved countless lives. Have a blessed day my friend and walk with your god in all things.

  18. Anonymous the Divine is whoever you want it to be. Call it God, Jesus, Buddha, Gaea, Manannan Maclir or the Dagda. It is whoever one wants it to be. Call it the universe or the Great Spirit if you wish. That is who the Divine is.

    1. Right. Choose a god then pray to it to remove your resentments and cravings. And if that doesn’t work, then you need to do another moral inventory. This time with more ‘rigorous honesty’. And if that doesn’t work it’s because you’re not praying hard enough. Maybe try a different god? It will get worse before it gets better. But rarely have we seen someone fail who really tried!

      1. Just because you failed doesn’t mean most other people don’t fail. with that you are one we refer to as constitutionally incapable of being honest with yourself. You are such an unfortunate

  19. April 19,1988 I walked into a meeting of Alocholics Anonymous beaten down by the disease of (as recognized and label as such by the AMA). I had been two times before to appease others and didn’t stay sober. Not because AA doesn’t/ didn’t work. But because I didn’t work it. When I finally surrendered to necessity of getting help and began to apply these spiritual principles to my daily life I began to have positive results. I have not had to take a drink from that day to this.
    No, AA does not have a monopoly on sobriety and has NEVER claimed to.
    The concept of finding your own understanding of a higher power is to hopefully prevent the all of God from driving newcomers back out to drinking as many come in hating, blaming or simply not believing in God. Our “Big Book” talks of God throughout and the fact that a right reliance and faith are paramount to sustaining sobriety.
    To the person who commented earlier that they had no need or desire to admit their”sins” to God or others. That probably explains why you do apparently have the need to continuously binge drink( your words not mine). If a pill is easier for you and it works. Go for it. As a sober member of AA I am not enslaved to any chemical in any form to achieve and maintain my recovery. AA is for fun and for free. No one is required to pay any money whatsoever. We contribute money that is true. We aren’t required or forced to do so. We want to ensure that AA remains available to who need AND want to get sober.
    I always find it entertaining when we and AA are bashed belittled and accused of things by someone reveling in ignorance or having a vendetta against the program of recovery for whatever reason. However the problem is that someone needing help might not get it due to reading or hearing these types of moronic unfounded rantings. Made by some one who is so obviously miserable and pathetic that they must attempt to make others that way too(misery loves company).
    Hope you some day get the help that you so obviously need. And can find a way to achieve some semblance of a happy life. Until then I shall place you in God’s hands as He certainly knows better what’s best for you.
    Mark Kinsler 04-19-1988
    Keep coming back.

    1. Great post Mark and congratulations on your sobriety. If the divine is merciful September will mark 27 years of continuous sobriety from the devastating disease of alcoholism for me. And I too found my recovery in the rooms. Before attending AA my concept of God was one of condemnation and damnation and I was convinced that I was going to hell. Thankfully I found a way to serve the divine and celebrate my humanity. Blessed be to you and your recovery sir.

  20. Interesting that you send me a link to a blog. There is no science in that blog. I did go to a link from there that had a study involved but that study said nothing about addiction and only reported against AA and other 12-step meetings. I am sure that taking a smattering of subjects and asking certain questions designed to get the “right” answers they came up with their statistics. While it may down play the effectiveness of 12-step programs, in no way did it support your claim that addiction does not exist. On the contrary it in fact supported facts that addiction does exist but that addicts can get and stay clean without help. I can tell you that while that may be true for a small population their assertion that 75% of people who become addicted is due only to them using a small population of subjects. I have worked in the addiction field for about 10 years and I have seen that the recidivism rate is around 75% which is contrary to what that study claimed. While subjects that I worked with may go on to lay claim to either full recovery from substances or moderate use without recurring consequences it has taken about 80% of them more than three tries to get to that point. Here is the fact; while people may be able to find recovery themselves, treatment and self-help groups can help them get to it sooner. Does it? Not always I will concede. However many die long before they reach that state alone. Try going to http://www.samhsa.gov/ for more real information on addiction.

  21. Oh and Trish my dear, AA is not treatment. It never was meant to be and it never will. In fact AA never says that they are the only form of recovery just one of many. Again, get your facts straight before spouting your nonsense.

  22. Well Trish first off I am not getting angry that you disagree with science. The fact that you lie out of your ass though is another ball game. To make a claim based on ignorance, either willfully or because you really don’t know, or junk science is libel. Do the research babe. AA is not the ones that made the initial assessment of addiction being a disease or for that matter that addiction exists. Addiction per the site answers.com has been around since the beginning of the human race. AA is not the first to coin the term addiction Per the site http://www.victorianweb.org/science/addiction/terms.htm In the 1880s, the first British professional society devoted to investigating drug and alcohol habituations, coined a new term to describe them; it called itself The Society for the Study and Cure of Inebriety. “Inebriety” carried with it the theory of the Society’s founder, Norman Kerr, that such habits were hereditary physical diseases. However, a loose variety of terms carried the same connotation . There was “alcoholic inebriety” and “morphine inebriety”; an endless list of manias: ” opiomania,” “morphinomania,” “chloralomania,” “etheromania,” “chlorodynomania,” and even “chloroformomania”; and – isms such as “cocainism” and “morphinism.” For the most part, these terms were not used specifically and consistently, thereby reflecting the multifarious state of nineteenth-century psychology and physiology. During the First World War, the Society – under the new leadership of William Collins – began favoring the term “addiction” over “inebriety,” because it wanted to advance a new theory, that it was a “disease of the will” or a problem more psychological than physical. Only then did “addiction” begin to designate a pathological relationship to drugs specifically, and shed its sense of devotion or pursuit.

    Perhaps instead of reading High Times magazine for your pseudo science facts you need to do real research. Talk to the doctors and scientists who would overwhelmingly disagree with your misguided assertion (lies) that there is no such thing as addiction.

    1. If you had actually read the research, you would have learned that inebriety was nothing more than a bad habit, and that it was a ‘disease’ was certainly not accepted as medical fact. You might recall that there were medical societies dedicated to proving the existence of ghosts and life after death, but that doesn’t make these phenomena true. (Sorry am I libeling AA again?)

      Physicians of the time often prescribed alcohol and opiates for the treatment of various medical conditions, and found that they worked great — until they stopped working. Of course some naturally considered a medical explanation. But that hardly proves ‘addiction’. And yes there always were and always will be chronic excessive drug and alcohol users. So what? That doesn’t prove addiction either. Just like people have always engaged in fun but self-destructive behavior. It seems like you’re addicted to this web site and I predict it will be your bane. But that hardly proves you have a disease.

      1. You state that people may use chronically but that it does not prove addiction but chronic use is in essence a part of addiction. Funny that you also say that I am addicted to this site yet you claim that addiction does not exist. This site is not my bane however I can see that trying to get you to stop lying about things that you have zero understanding about is much like banging one’s head against a brick wall with the same results being a damned big headache and nothing else. But you can go ahead and continue to think that you have anything resembling the truth and I will continue to post on here with truth to contradict you.

    2. Opening with an ad hominem “lie through your ass” proves that your claim to take science seriously is a complete sham.

      You’re like the kind of creationist who likes science that demonstrates evidence of ancient floods in multiple places and uses it to “prove” that Noah’s flood was a fact.

      Just because a term exists, doesn’t make the concept it describes a fact. In the pre-germ-theory era, slaves who wanted to escape were believed to have a disease – drapetomania. Before germ theory, fever was believed to be a single disease, we now know fever is a tool of the immune system that can be trigger by numerous diseases.

      Since you seem so hostile to me, as a person, and accuse me of actually lying, this is the last time I will be responding to you.

      1. “Just because a term exists, doesn’t make the concept it describes a fact.”

        And just because you claim, that has no scientific evidence, that is does not exist does not make it a fact. The science is there to prove what I have been telling you if you were to actually look at it and not the junk science you so obviously adore.

        “Since you seem so hostile to me, as a person, and accuse me of actually lying, this is the last time I will be responding to you.”

        Sorry you feel that way but if you were not lying about your claims I wouldn’t have to call a spade a spade. I would be lying myself if I said I was going to miss you, so I wont tell you that. Have a blessed evening.

  23. Taxes are but a small part of what goes into paying probation officers. The other part comes directly from the probationers in the form of court costs, fines and the cost of supervision. And as far as the science behind addiction is concerned; have you really even tried through your own myopic view to research the science? Perhaps your junk science that you do find is where you are getting your misinformation. There are decades of real science that backs the idea of addiction. Just because you claim that it does not exist does not make it so. You are probably one of those “the earth is only 6000 years old” wackos aren’t you? Westboro Baptist church goer?

  24. Wow…….freedom of press.. Even this guy has the right to write.

    That’s enough wasted time. It works if you work it.

      1. Aa gets credit because aa is what brings like minded people to come together to work towards a common solution. Without aa that would not happen. You need other people in the program to help you work the program and helping people work the program is part of the program. Therefore thanks goes to the program because without it the work done by the individual would not be possible.

  25. aa has nothing to do with salvation. Aa is about not drinking. It works. You wanna loose weight, go to the gym. You wanna stop drinking go to aa. You wanna go to heaven, accept jesus Christ. Some people think they know the truth. You make me just pray for you. Ct.

    1. It sounds like everything you know about AA you read in 1970s Dear Abby columns (p.s., Abby was in AA, too, but kept it secret so it looked like she was giving people unbiased advice when she published her terrifying-to-teens lists of “you might be an alcoholic if…” lists and promoted AA as the one and only “cure” for the made-up disease of “alcoholism”.)

  26. Probationers don’t pay the salaries of the probation officers, the state or county does. And I wasn’t referring to probationers as shitsticks. I was referring to people who spread their dangerous libel about an organization they know nothing about.

    1. Probationers do pay those salaries. It’s called taxes.

      “Dangerous libel”?

      How do you know how much any of the other commenters know about the organization? Perhaps some of us have read the historical research, as well as the science – or lack of science – about the supposed disease of “addiction”.

      1. Yes Trish libel…that is exactly what I posted. You and addictionmyth are liars. You look at things that happen to someone when they relapse and then die and you use flawed cause and effect to “support” your claims which in the end hurt people not help. Perhaps instead of spreading lies about something you obviously know nothing about you should talk about alternatives to AA to help people through their addictions. To claim that addiction does not exist is tantamount to putting your head in the sand and just hoping against hope that it will go away. Well my dear it won’t just go away. It needs to be addressed and denying something exists is not the way to address it.

      2. Does it not occur to you that if there are no alternatives to AA that AA is not real treatment of a real disease?

        If someone who has a real disease says, “I don’t have epilepsy” the first response from a treating physician is not “Saying you don’t have epilepsy is proof you DO have epilepsy” (Or “Saying you don’t have malaria (or diabetes or herpes or hepatitis) is proof you DO have malaria (or herpes or diabetes or hepatitis etc., etc.). The doctor will be able to show someone who has a disease, “This is the EEG of your brain” or your blood sugar levels compared to normal or the antibodies or the parasites in your blood.

        If someone goes to a doctor and says, “I have glaucoma.” The doctor doesn’t take their word for it. The doctor will want to see the medical records that prove this, or test the person to determine if this is true. In fact, if a person claims to have a disease that hasn’t been demonstrated by tests, the doctor will think it’s highly unlikely that the person has the disease they claim to have.

        Just getting angry that people disagree with your claim doesn’t turn something into a disease that is not a disease. Science and medicine do not work that way.

        This is another thing about AA that I object to, as a citizen and a taxpayer – AA has warped the understanding of what a disease is, how that is determined by science and how diseases are actually diagnosed.

      3. Oh, Gavin, one other thing. In the realms of science and medicine, counter a claim is not “libel” – it’s part of the scientific process.

        In science and medicine it’s perfectly acceptable – and not libel – to say, “I don’t think this knee surgery really helps people” or “I don’t believe fibromyalgia is a disease”. It’s up to the people who believe the knee surgery works, or that fibromyalgia is a disease, to do the research and testing to get evidence, publish it in peer-reviewed journals and make their methods available to other scientists so they can see if the evidence can be replicated by people who are not emotionally attached to the claim.

      4. The only reason there is no science is because it is an anonymous program which makes it extremely hard to gather data properly because success stories cannot be logged. Only failures can be documented as they either die or make it back to treatment if they are lucky so the success to failure ratio is terribly skewed. walk into any aa or na or CA or whatever 12 step meeting you want and ask them if it works

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